Journal Timex's Journal: The knife cuts both ways 30
I was reading an article about the disputed fence along the Texan border, and there was an interesting point made in defense of the opposition, because of the work that has been done in years past to protect the wildlife indigenous to the area.
The most interesting bit, I thought, was this, found at the end of the article:
Jim Chapman, president of Frontera Audubon, said the Supreme Court decision was just another indication of the prevailing "strange times."
"If you don't stop and examine what the impacts may be, you won't know what they were until whatever you're trying to protect is gone," he said.
Perhaps Mr Chapman would like to remember that if something isn't done to stop the massive influx of illegal immigrants to the United States, the exact same thing could be said of American culture.
Yeah, but neither is constant (Score:2)
The culture is mutating, some would say declining. Maybe we should all just learn Spanish and get it over with.
(Sorry, the current political climate has me less than optimistic.)
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Cultures change. Would a pre-Columbian from what is now Mexico recognize its culture today? Would a Victorian Briton recognize modern London's culture as his own? Imperial China vs Maoist? Pre- and post-war Japanese?
Our culture changes steadily*. It is different now than it was twenty years ago, and it will be different still twenty years from now. One might or might not like the direction of the change, but change it will nonetheless.
[*: And thus perhaps avoids the abrupt and disruptive changes of the sort
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The question is whether ours in on a negative slope portion of the curve.
Many would say "Uh, yeah!"
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I have no problem with the culture itself changing over time, but what's happening in the United States because of a failure to deal with the problem on the Southern Border is much, much more than that.
People are coming into the country at such a rate that INS is not able to do much about it, and they (the illegal immigrants) know it. They get here, they work for peanuts (sometimes at rates below what the law requires), and if they're working under the table, they don't pay into the welfare system (like an
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People are coming into the country at such a rate that INS is not able to do much about it, and they (the illegal immigrants) know it. They get here, they work for peanuts (sometimes at rates below what the law requires), and if they're working under the table, they don't pay into the welfare system (like any taxpayer does). If they're not paying taxes to support the infrastructure, then they are quite literally a leech on society, taking more out of it than they put in.
This strikes me more as a tacit capitalistic argument _against_ the welfare system. A commandeering of the American culture? Look, this slow-motion invasion _is_ the essence of American culture: people coming to a new land where they can work and eke out a living. If they were English-speaking, would we notice the cultural impact?
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People are coming into the country at such a rate that INS is not able to do much about it, and they (the illegal immigrants) know it. They get here, they work for peanuts (sometimes at rates below what the law requires), and if they're working under the table, they don't pay into the welfare system (like any taxpayer does). If they're not paying taxes to support the infrastructure, then they are quite literally a leech on society, taking more out of it than they put in.
This strikes me more as a tacit capitalistic argument _against_ the welfare system. A commandeering of the American culture? Look, this slow-motion invasion _is_ the essence of American culture: people coming to a new land where they can work and eke out a living.
I actually have no problem with the welfare system as a general rule. I see welfare as "insurance", supported by working people against a time when they may not have enough to support themselves or their family. (Been there, done that.) It's one thing to use welfare if you've been able to pay into it, and I think it's something else altogether to use the system, be able to work, and not pay into it.
If they were English-speaking, would we notice the cultural impact?
I don't care what language people speak, to be honest. English is the predominant language in the United
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Forget welfare, language, health care, etc. While all are issues and people are on both sides of those arguments, the main problem with illegal immigration is the indisputable fact that it is illegal.
It just astounds me how people will passionately argue for or against illegal immigration with the main items on the plate being culture, language, welfare, taxes, insert generic issue here, yet completely overlook the main issue: It is illegal. The law puts forth many legal ways for a person wishing to ente
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The issue exeeds the scope and complexity of simple legality, and has since they started offering amnesty and then enforcing selectively.
So the legality issue remains largely ignored.
Much the same way we feign outrage at a bunch of single mothers in Massachusettes, yet no one points out that fornication is a sin, and these strapping young lads ought to keep their genetic material to themselves unless they're married to the
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Which is why I don't cheat on my taxes and expect to receive a ticket if I exceed the speed limit (though I try not to do that purposely).
Selective enforcement of the law is a big reason the law gets broken. If we, the U.S., enforce immigration laws across the board, we will naturally see a decline in illegal immigration. Someone breaking our laws to enter our country does not deserve "amnesty". What guarantee do we have that they will obey our other laws once they are here if they cannot be bothered to
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Why, indeed, have these laws? Business is rather explicitely calling the government's bluff.
Maybe somebody is getting turned on by seeing Lou Dobbs in attack mode.
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If I'm selling widgets, and a couple of years later, I reduce the price by half, am I being unfair to those who paid the higher price? Is running away from slavery wrong if my brother still in chains? The vast majority of "illegals" are brought in by the demand for cheap labor. The employer tells them to come to America, "We'll get you in". The raids and the propaganda exist to keep them cowering in the corner, and working under slavish conditions. The bad guy
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Did you miss my statement that American businesses "importing" cheap labor should face far stronger penalties then they do now? Yes, illegal immigrants should face deportation, but those who exploit them should face jail and fines (and loss of their business, IMO).
That doesn't negate the fact that illegal immigrants are not being marched across the border at gunpoint. If they choose to come, then I believe they choose to risk deportation. I embrace anyone, of any nationality to come join our beautiful,
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Or go home.
Maybe someday, if we ever stop meddling and quit supporting those who turn their countries into prisons and plantations, I could say the same thing. As it is, it's scapegoating the runaways [nationalcenter.org] without making even the feeblest effect to see the benefits enjoyed by their presence or the process that necessitates it. I would dearly love to see how the economy would run if they all stayed home and everybody boycotted illegal drugs. Whether it's currency, weapons, drugs, or people, contraband is its life
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As it is, it's scapegoating the runaways without making even the feeblest effect to see the benefits enjoyed by their presence or the process that necessitates it.
There are no "benefits", except those "enjoyed" by those that abuse the laws of the land.
No state has the right to tell me where I can be. Freedom of movement is a birthright.
Freedom of movement within one's own country is a birthright, else there would be no need for passports.
If I, being a law-abiding American citizen, need a passport to go to Mexico or Canada, then people need to follow suit and go through legal channels if they choose to come into the United States.
If that's too difficult for you or anyone else, that's too bad. That's the law. If a person can't be bothered to obey th
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You are making a fallacious analogy between illegal immigrants and slavery? Seriously?
As for the rest of the baloney you are trying to let fly... Get some cheese and enjoy a sandwich with your whine...
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Aw, I was looking for an argument, and all I get is abuse, and I'm not the one whining about who goes where. See, cause I really gotta know, what's the difference between a country and a plantation? And what's the difference between then and now? Those laws were very popular for a time. So please, for the sake of the weak minded, explain the difference between a fugitive slave and an illegal immigrant. Try to go a little deeper than, "it's the law"*. See, because I'm one of those weirdos who believe the law
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Aw, I was looking for an argument, and all I get is abuse, and I'm not the one whining about who goes where.
Actually, you did complain [slashdot.org], when you said this little gem:
No state has the right to tell me where I can be. Freedom of movement is a birthright.
That said...
See, cause I really gotta know, what's the difference between a country and a plantation?
I'm sure Pudge will have something to say about that if he notices your post, but I'll explain it like this: a country is a region marked by political boundaries. A plantation is personal property that is more of an anachronism, at least in the United States.
And what's the difference between then and now? Those laws were very popular for a time.
Right, but people came to realize that laws supporting to slavery were wrong and sought to change them. The American Civil War did have Slavery as one of the main reasons, but i
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Give me a real reason why humans shouldn't be allowed to roam like buffalo
How about preventing terrorists from entering our nation for starters? If we removed all laws restricting people's ability to move from one country to another at their own whim, how long do you think it would be before the United States would be flooded with jihadists who want us to die? Boundaries are important for economies, yes-- but they are also important for protecting a nation's citizens from those who wish them harm.
it will get no respect from me, just compliance
Compliance will suffice. I've learned not to expect respect or love of count
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The culture is mutating, some would say declining.
Soft life. Just click here [bluechopsticks.com], and BAM! At your door when you finish your morning shower. Hey...Such a deal, eh? Scapegoating the people who make that stuff ain't cool. And the fence jumpers are a tiny percentage of those brought in by the farm and processing plant and factory owners.
And don't worry about the Spanish. Few second generation, and much fewer third generation immigrants speak anything but English. And a lot of them don't want any newcomers either.
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Personally, I think that the fear kicks in among some when they consider that the Mexicans are reproducing. It's really an old blues:
Eccl 2:18-23
Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me.
And who knoweth whether he shall be a wise [man] or a fool? yet shall he have rule over all my labour wherein I have laboured, and wherein I have shewed myself wise under the sun. This [is] also vanity.
Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labour which I took under the sun.
For there is a man whose labour [is] in wisdom, and in knowledge, and in equity; yet to a man that hath not laboured therein shall he leave it [for] his portion. This also [is] vanity and a great evil.
For what hath man of all his labour, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he hath laboured under the sun?
For all his days [are] sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.
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I'm learning Spanish and having my kids learn Spanish. And I'm optimistic about what it means for their future. I think that the influx of people with another primary language is going to help us better understand and get along with the rest of the world.
Where I live now the primary source of Spanish speakers is Puerto Rico and those people are Americans. Back home in AZ it is primarily Mexicans - and I think if we look at history and current trends- that they are having a good influence cultural
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I think the vast majority of Americans should be learning Spanish.
I think that would depend on where you are. Where I live, the predominant immigrant population is Portuguese, from the Azores.
I have no problem with requiring a second (or third, or...) language for kids in school, because it does open the eyes of the kids to the world around them. Depending on the language, it may even help them with their English vocabulary.
The real issue, as Wife pointed out, is a legal one. If people want to come to this country, great. There are ways to do that.
I believe that if p
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I agree about ignoring the laws not being right - but the issue as I see it is that many of the people breaking the laws are doing what almost any rational person would do in their situation. One can literally drive less than an hour south of our border and find people living off the pickings of a garbage dump. If that were me, I would feel completely moral in moving north to a place where I could feed and clothe my children and they would get health care, education, etc. I wouldn't let someone's made up
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I have no issue with people wanting to move here to provide a better life for themselves and their families. There are, however, legal ways to go about doing this.
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There are but they suck. They are totally ignorant of the real situation. Coming here legally is so complicated it isn't even funny. It is also very expensive. And a lot of that money is payed up front with no guarantee and no refund if you are denied.
There needs to be a guest worker program that allows people to come up and work. That needs to be plugged into a system that will allow us to filter out criminals and others we don't want to allow in. Make it easy for the people we do want coming
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I agree that laws need to change and with most of what you said. However, in the mean time, people wishing to enter the U.S. still need to obey current laws. Just because a law "sucks" and needs to be rewritten does not make people less subject to it.
I happen to think that our current income tax is horrible, wrong, and just generally "sucks". That does not mean I do not pay taxes. I do, however, support candidates who want to do away with our current tax system and replace it with a flat percentage or
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Well- I'd say that the problems with the tax code and immigration are a different order of magnitude.
I think a lot of people, myself included, find current situation not just unwise but immoral. I imagine that you would not hesitate to break a law that you thought was immoral. I hope so anyway.
I think there is plenty of room for disagreement on that. And I respect a desire for law and order. But I personally do believe that the current situation is causing people to die and I find that t
Health Care (Score:2)
Scenario: Illegal Immigrant gets the sniffles, goes to the ER.
ER gets clogged because of illegal immigrants with the sniffles, service in triage goes down.
Illegal Immigrant doesn't pay his bill, because he/she is uninsured, and there's no permanent address to track them down to get them to pay.
Hospital can't absorb costs, so it raises other prices to cover this, or hospital closes.
Higher prices means your crappy HMO/PPO costs go up, which means the middle c
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From the people I've talked to in health care - part of the problem is that they don't come in when they have sniffles. They wait until it is pneumonia or worse, and much more expensive to treat than if it had just been a cold or the flu.
I personally don't think that you can stop the flow if there is a desire to come. I think it has to be handled at the source of the attraction. Employers that hire illegals need to be hammered. Then they will be motivated to bribe, er I mean lobby lawmakers into