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Journal Timex's Journal: How's that, again? 27

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I hear a lot from the Liberal Left that Islam is a religion of peace. In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means."

I just finished reading this over at the Sunday Times. If it were an isolated case, I might be convinced to believe them, but alas, it's not.

Even the crackpots of Christian persuation may say some crazy things sometimes, but not to this level. (Before anyone starts bringing up the Crusades, bear in mind that I make a distinction between "Christianity" and the "Catholic Church". Many consider Catholics to be Christian, but not all Christians are Catholics. Not all Christian groups that exist these days split from the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that called for the Crusades.)

Perhaps the Liberals really meant that it's a "religion of pieces".

[Added after submission: The tagline at the bottom of the page read, "I judge a religion as being good or bad based on whether its adherents become better people as a result of practicing it. - Joe Mullally, computer salesman". I don't think I could have made my point any better. --Timex]

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How's that, again? More

How's that, again?

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  • ...I think. Imagine, for example (and this is only a hypothetical), if today the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America announced a crusade. They called on all Christians to purge the earth of any who followed another religion. What would you do? Would you do little more than call it a "perverse interpretation of Christianity"? Imagine some Lutheran walking into a wedding party of Christian folk and blowing himself and the place up, because they didn't believe in Christianity as the Lutherans proscribed. Th
    • Imagine, for example (and this is only a hypothetical), if today the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America announced a crusade. They called on all Christians to purge the earth of any who followed another religion. What would you do?

      I would do everything I could to stop them. I would use education (press, leaflets, whatever means available) to make sure people understood that these people were in the wrong. I would alert the authorities if I knew that something was going to happen. If I knew where the
      • I don't really see much of a comparison, especially since I don't see the Lutherans as getting that violent.

        Recall that I had said "(and this is only a hypothetical)" -- I was just picking someone/anyone to use just for my made-up example. No offense intended to Lutherans! (BTW, I grew up Lutheran.) Maybe I should've beat up on my own org, Calvary Chapel.

        I agree with you. If Christianity's reputation was going downhill so suddenly fast, I would make it tiresomely clear and obvious, at every opportunity, tha
        • Recall that I had said "(and this is only a hypothetical)"

          I remember that quite well. I was trying to have a little fun, while making my point too. :)

          I would like to believe that Allah is just their name for the same God I worship.

          Don't be fooled into thinking that this is the case. I'll give you one good reason why: Ask any Muslim if Allah had any sons. They will tell you, with no uncertain terms, that he did not. The God that Christians serve had ONE: Jesus Christ.

          God cannot have an "only begotten
      • If there are Muslims working to stop the terrorists, we don't hear about it.

        Largely because the mainstream press doesn't bother to report it when it happens, because it doesn't sell as many papers as whipping up their readership into a frenzy does.

        For all the rhetoric about the French getting what they deserve with Muslims in the riots, it's interesting to note that the fact that all the major Islamic groups in France issued fatwas banning violence (including one group normally known for being hard-li

        • Both Islam and Christianity are quite capable of being manipulated and twisted into weapons.

          Solution: Rise up against the MEDIA! It's all THEIR fault!

          • Solution: Rise up against the MEDIA! It's all THEIR fault!

            From previous comments and the capitalization choice, I am assuming that you don't think it's the media's fault.

            Compare this with Islam. If there are Muslims working to stop the terrorists, we don't hear about it. They turn a blind eye to the whole matter UNLESS other Muslims are killed (such as Iraq and Jordan). If it's only the "infidels", they couldn't care less. If the victim is Jewish, the Arabs say, so much the better.

            If you aren't gettin

            • From previous comments and the capitalization choice, I am assuming that you don't think it's the media's fault.

              Not completely.

              I understand the point that Ethelred was making, in that the Media only prints what will best turn a quick buck for them. That means leaving out all the "good news" and printing only "bad news".

              If Ethelred is correct in that there are Islamic leaders (even the Ayatollahs) calling for these terrorists to stop, and that the American press isn't saying anything about it, then they (t
              • I understand the point that Ethelred was making, in that the Media only prints what will best turn a quick buck for them. That means leaving out all the "good news" and printing only "bad news".

                That's not quite what I meant. They print whatever it is they think will sell newspapers. Whether it's heartwarming stories about Johnny organizing a fundraiser for cancer patients at his school, or a tearjerker about Molly and her need for a bone marrow transplant (and appeal for money), or a report about those na

                • I didn't say "Ayatollahs", which would imply Shi'ites, particularly in Iran and Iraq. I meant "Muslim leaders in France", i.e. imams and muftis.

                  I stand corrected, but my point was that the violence was left largely uncondemned by the leaders of Islam's two biggest groups.

                  Link: http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm [islamfortoday.com]

                  Thanks for that link. It's encouraging to see that there are some prominent Muslims that condemn al Qaida. It's not definitive, but this is certainly a Good Thing.

                  I thought this [islamfortoday.com] was espec
          • Well hey, you are one of those screaming loudest 'round these parts about media bias...except, of course, when it suits your preconceptions. ;-P

            Cheers,

            Ethelred

            • Well hey, you are one of those screaming loudest 'round these parts about media bias...

              I call it like I see it...

              except, of course, when it suits your preconceptions. ;-P

              Nope. It's absolutely biased. There isn't any such thing as a non-biased news source.

              The difference is that some acknowledge that they're biased and some don't.
  • There were 1,700 acts of violence or threats of acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees and patrons between 1977 and 1994. The ATF logged 167 actual attacks between 1982 and 1997, which is nearly one attack on an abortion clinic, employee, or patron every month.

    On February 22nd, 1982, an arson attack on an abortion clinic in Mesquite, TX caused more than $1.5 million in damage in a shopping center. Ten stores were damaged in the resulting conflagration. Fortunately, nobody was hurt.

    On
    • Where you see an Muslim, however, you seem to see a murdering Muslim, and where you see a murdering Muslim, you see a murdering Muslin, and you demand that "justice" be extracted upon every Muslim in punishment for the subset's transgressions.

      Where I see a murdering Muslim, I see entire villiages, cities, nations protecting him from being brought to justice, just because he operates in the name of his god. Case in point: Osama bin Ladin and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, to name two. Extremist or not, I don't see
      • Remember that I mentioned that "some make a distinction between Christianity (as a whole) and Catholicism"? I'm one of those that do. CATHOLIC history includes the things of which you speak. Baptist history does not.

        But would you say that Catholicism isn't a religion of piece?

        • But would you say that Catholicism isn't a religion of piece?[sic]

          Today, it could be described as a religion of peace, at least based on the general practices and teachings from the top on down. It hasn't always been the case, though: refer to the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., all of which are (generally) considered dark points in their history.

          My point in making the distinction is not to say that Catholics aren't Christian, so much as to stress that it is possible to be Christian without being
          • This practice has not been followed since well-before the 1500s, that I am aware of.

            The Muslims getting killed by Christians in Indonesia or the Philippines (and vice versa) would have a very hard time understanding just how Christianity is inherently a religion of peace as you seek to portray it. Or, for that matter, the so-called Lord's Resistance Army [wikipedia.org], which claims to be acting in the name of Christianity...

            Ah, but those aren't real Christians, right? Guess what: Muslims that kill in the name of Isl

            • The Muslims getting killed by Christians in Indonesia or the Philippines (and vice versa) would have a very hard time understanding just how Christianity is inherently a religion of peace as you seek to portray it. Or, for that matter, the so-called Lord's Resistance Army, which claims to be acting in the name of Christianity...

              Are Muslims the world-over afraid of anyone that is Christian, because they are afraid that they'll kill at the first opportunity? No.

              The problem here is that the biggest Christian
              • Are Muslims the world-over afraid of anyone that is Christian, because they are afraid that they'll kill at the first opportunity? No.

                I pose you this question:
                Are Christians the world over afraid of anyone that is Muslim because they are afraid that they'll kill at the first opportunity? No.

                They're not, and if they are they are being just plain stereotypical. For example, who is afraid that an Indonesian muslim is going to kill them at the first opportunity? Or an East African Muslim? Because they do

              • Are Muslims the world-over afraid of anyone that is Christian, because they are afraid that they'll kill at the first opportunity? No.

                Are you afraid that Muslims will kill you at the first opportunity? Probably not. (I know I'm not.) So what's your point?

                It is my understanding that the majority of the world sees only two Christian groups: the Catholics and the Protestants. America seems to be unique in making a distinction between the Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.

                The Orthodox, Nestorians, C

                • Al-Ma'idah 5:32.

                  Hm. My Koran reads,

                  "For this reason, We made it a law for th echildren of Israel that the killing of a person for reasons other than legal retaliation or for stopping corruption in th eland is as great a sin as murdering all of mankind. However, to save a life would be as great a virtue as to save all of mankind."

                  That's pretty different from what you quoted, and even from the translation I linked to you last night. I wonder now, how accurate the translation is from the Islamic Semin

                  • That's pretty different from what you quoted, and even from the translation I linked to you last night. I wonder now, how accurate the translation is from the Islamic Seminary? (My copy says it was translated by Shaikh Muhammed Sarwar, published by the Islamic Seminary, Elmhurst, NY.)

                    For one thing, your version isn't all that different. The Bible OT has a similar "difference", in that some versions say "thou shalt not kill", while others state "thou shalt not murder". The latter -- and your version of th

      • HOWEVER, the terrorists they are fighting have killed Iraqi civians. Such is my point. If the terrorists had limited themselves to just killing the "infidel forces" of America and her allies, then the Iraqi forces likely wouldn't care less. Of course, that is pure supposition on my part.

        I presume you're in the United States, based on the types of things you post and the fact that you've shown support for Bush and various other American politicians in the past. That would mean that you are an active supporte
        • That would mean that you are an active supporter of a government that has, variously, supported, to different degrees...

          You've managed to ignore the fact that at the times that each of these were "supported", they were considered to be better than what the alternative was. bin Laden was (as I recall) fighting against the USSR in Afghanistan, Saddam was up against Iran, Etc.

          All people and/or groups that either currently violently and brutally oppress their own people or have in the recent past.

          Not being a
          • If you bother to look, you'll find that I don't quote documents (Bible, Koran, etc) unless I know the context. I haven't quoted Koran because I don't read it very often. I have one, so if someone does care to quote it, I can look it up. I get really annoyed when people take things like that out of context.

            In other words, you're damning a religion you admit to knowing next to nothing about.

            So, let me sum this up.

            When a white man strings a gay man from a fencepost and pistolwhips him to death, then claims he'
            • When a white man strings a gay man from a fencepost and pistolwhips him to death, then claims he's doing the work of the lord (a claim well-supported by the Bible), he's just a murderer acting on his own.

              Absolutely. The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, but it does not condone vigilante justice.

              When an Arab man runs into police station in Iraq and starts shooting "infidels", he's a Muslim acting on his faith (even though the primary attacks in Iraq not carried about by AQ and affiliates hav
              • .. but it does not condone vigilante justice.

                The bible is full of instances in which "god" commands that somebody indiscriminatly slaughter men, women, and children in righteous vengeance. God himself is shown to be a mass murdering maniac in your book in numerous instances - he reportedly drowned the population of the entire world in one instance. He has destroyed numerous cities and all of the inhabitants, and he has given the go-ahead to murder in his name numerous additional times.

                The entire book of Deu

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