Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
United States

Journal pudge's Journal: Sunday Thoughts 62

Of Parties

A great many people have been talking about how Reagan made the Republican party what it is today, and I believe that is true. He was the right man at the right time, when the party -- and America itself -- were at very low points.

But it got me thinking, what if Reagan had not won in 1980? What if the Democrats, in the wake of Watergate, had nominated someone like Bill Clinton to be their nominee? Someone who was a strong, charismatic, popular leader? (For the sake of discussion, I'll pretend Clinton was an option.)

Regardless of what else was going on in the late 70s, Clinton would have been a force to be reckoned with, and very likely could have won reelection where Carter could not. And Reagan, having lost the nomination in 1976, and losing to Clinton in 1980, never would have run again, being far too old to run for a first term.

It's not difficult to see how this scenario could have translated into another several-decades long run of Democrat dominance of the federal government. And frankly, it makes me wonder if maybe more of the credit for the Republican revolution in 1994 -- where the Republicans have now held both houses for 10 years running, excepting the Senate from 2001-2002 -- goes not to what Reagan started in 1980, but what the Democrats failed to pull off in 1976, by nominating a nice guy from Georgia instead of a political whirlwind from Arkansas.

What's this got to do with anything? I don't know, but 2004 feels a lot like 1976/1980 to me, with the party roles reversed. The Republicans are the ones with the upper hand, with a chance to really drive a stake through the heart of the Democrats with a big victory. The Democrats, on the other hand, have the opportunity to begin what could be a major resurgence of the party, should Kerry win and become a successful and popular President. And even if Kerry does win, if he can't establish a Democratic presence in his four years, it might push the Democrats deeper than if he hadn't run at all.

Stem Cells

There's been a lot of talk this week about Nancy Reagan and her propositions regarding stem cell research. It's clear that many conservatives will stand against her, because they -- in my opinion, quite rightly -- see no significant distinction between abortion, and the growing of human cells for medical research.

Michael J. Fox's pleas in this realm fall on logical ears, and progress no further. We should allow what we find abominable because it might help others? Because other countries will allow it anyway? It doesn't change the fact that we find it abominable. His argument is a textbook "ends justifying the means": the means do not matter, because the ends are so worthwhile.

There's no reason to be found in his argument. It's one thing to argue that stem cell research doesn't harm human beings; this is where the real debate lies. But he avoids this debate, instead choosing to chastise anyone who would dwell on such a question. He therefore has nothing to say to the people who disagree with him.

I've not heard too much of what Mrs. Reagan has to say on the issue, but what I have heard, to me, seems along the same lines. I don't know if she plans on bringing this up before the election on any significant scale, but if she does, she has no hope of winning the battle in the Republican party, any more than anyone would have a chance of changing the party's mind on abortion.

Moving On

It's an odd week where two so well-known and widely beloved people die. I wonder if the occasion generates especial introspection because of the disabilities of each. Ronald now remembers, and Ray now sees.

This discussion was created by pudge (3605) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Sunday Thoughts

Comments Filter:
  • they ... see no significant distinction between abortion, and the growing of human cells ...

    Shouldn't that be, "growing of human embryonic cells." Please clarify, as the original meaning is extremely restrictive (i.e. 'can't grow those skin cells').

    • Even your definition would be too limiting, in my view: what if one defined "the growing of human embryonic cells for medical research" inclusive of all research done on children intended to be carried to term? I think, from the context, no clarification is necessary; that everyone seems to have understood what I meant -- including you -- forces me to conclude it.
  • Is that some of the same things would've happened, it just would've taken a bit longer.

    The Republican party was already starting to cater to Southern and Religious voters after Goldwater. His anti-federal civil rights position started the move(as well as causing a lot of flip-flopping between parties) in the south, which later leaders capitalized on.

    Reagan just acted as an accelerant imo.

    Oh and Nancy will remain quiet I believe. I can't guarantee it, but I imagine she will regardless of how vehementall
    • The Republican party was already starting to cater to Southern and Religious voters after Goldwater. His anti-federal civil rights position started the move(as well as causing a lot of flip-flopping between parties) in the south, which later leaders capitalized on.

      Excellent points, but remember who I am talking about here: Clinton. He won about half the South (east of Texas) in each election.

      Reagan just acted as an accelerant imo.

      My whole point is that Clinton (or someone like him) likely would have
  • by jamie ( 78724 )

    We should allow what we find abominable because it might help others? ... It doesn't change the fact that we find it abominable. ... There's no reason to be found in his argument. It's one thing to argue that stem cell research doesn't harm human beings; this is where the real debate lies. But he avoids this debate, instead choosing to chastise anyone who would dwell on such a question. He therefore has nothing to say to the people who disagree with him.

    You ignore pleas and suffering, turning your back

    • "Abmoniable" was not first used in the Bible you know, or the concept
      atleast. God didn't just invent the word the day Leviticus (guessing
      on first use of word abominable) was written by Moses on the mount. In
      fact, while it may be hard for you to believe, there are many folks who
      are not prolife because they are Christian (granted I am not one of
      them, as I am Christian). There are those who feel that the life of a
      child overrules the liberty of the mother for convienence.

      If you want to make a logical argume
      • Don't argue against things I never said and accuse me of being stubborn. I wouldn't say only Christians believe abortion is wrong.

        What I would say is that almost everyone who thinks a blastocyst is a person, exactly like you or me in all essentials, acquired that belief through religious indoctrination. I would say that almost everyone who believes that adult, intelligent, conscious, suffering people should be condemned to helplessness forever because a hemocytoblast formed ten years ago belongs in a coff

        • I would say that almost everyone who believes that adult, intelligent, conscious, suffering people should be condemned to helplessness forever because a hemocytoblast formed ten years ago belongs in a coffin instead of a test tube ...

          I was specifically talking about the creation of these for the purpose of their destruction for medical research. Using existing dead tissue is a separate issue (though, since I believe abortion is an abomination,

          And I strongly suspect that anyone who, like pudge, thinks t
    • The problem is, jamie, that you're wrong. I do not ignore or turn my back (and the actions I do take are far more comprehensive than what can be found in any one book). I do not ignore the pleas, but I judge that they are less important than the lives that are being created and destroyed. You disagree, which is fine. But what Fox does -- and what many people do -- is deny that the question of life has any relevance at all.

      I do not deny the point of pain and suffering has relevance. I do not deny that
    • I should think that by now you know full well that pudge's religion is not why he finds abortion abominable. Given that, you are trolling.

      For the record, "abominable" means "disgusting." It's not some magical theological word. Here's an example sentence: "the rape and torture of Iraqi prisoners was abominable." Hoping you agree.

  • by mfh ( 56 )
    > It doesn't change the fact that we find it abominable.

    What's abominable about stem cell research?

    If the right is so concerned about human cells, why do humans shed cells every day? Why do we all lose them when we spit, or brush our teeth, or use the toilet? When we pop a zit?

    If the right wing cares so much about stem cells, why don't they truly stop the war that is killing so many human cells that I wouldn't be able to pronounce the number, it'd be so high. No offense to right wingers, intended. It
    • What's abominable about stem cell research?

      If the right is so concerned about human cells, why do humans shed cells every day? Why do we all lose them when we spit, or brush our teeth, or use the toilet? When we pop a zit?


      I'm sorry, you appear to have mistaken this journal for a remedial debate class. This is the advanced class.
      • Wow, what a great advanced debate technique. While I agree that discussing the loss of cells when popping zits does nothing to advance the debate, you (pudge) managed to sneekaly avoid the rest of the post.

        If the idea of preventing stem cell research is that human life (in any form) is sacred and must be protected at all costs, why is it acceptable to loose thousands of human lives in Iraq (these being actual living humans, with brains, well past the second trimester mark you mentioned above) yet it is una
        • you (pudge) managed to sneekaly avoid the rest of the post

          I got bored and didn't read the rest of it.

          If the idea of preventing stem cell research is that human life (in any form) is sacred and must be protected at all costs, why is it acceptable to loose thousands of human lives in Iraq (these being actual living humans, with brains, well past the second trimester mark you mentioned above) yet it is unacceptable to do research with human stem cells for the purpose of treating horrible diseases?

          And I a
        • If the idea of preventing stem cell research is that human life (in any form) is sacred and must be protected at all costs

          Remedial is right. He did not state that "human life (in any form) is sacred and must be protected at all costs..."

          What he said was that the presumptive right to life of the child/fetus/embrio/whatever has a higher value than the utility of the research. He said murder in the name of science is wrong. If you want to debate with the big boys, at least TRY to pay attention to what was sai

        • I am probably not the best person to answer the comparison between abortion and the war, as I am a pacifist right-winger. However, I'll attempt to summarize the argument from the perspective of those who do believe war is (sometimes or always) justifiable:

          "We cannot permit embryonic stem-cell research because it involves the taking of a human life."

          "But you sanction war, and that involves the taking of human life."

          "We believe in the protection of all innocent human life."

          Yes, yes, there are m

      • by mfh ( 56 )
        > I'm sorry, you appear to have mistaken this journal for a remedial debate class. This is the advanced class.

        I would say something offensive back, but I think you have proven my point. The right has no grounds to stand on, that are not wrought with conflicting statements and ideologies, barring the hatred of the lower class and minorities and anyone that would support their fates. And you should know better than to try and mock someone for simply commenting in your journal, just because they are left.
        • by pudge ( 3605 ) *
          I think you have proven my point.

          Yes, you do. But that doesn't mean it is so.

          This isn't about left and right, or right and wrong. This is about you attempting to lower the level of debate from something interesting, to something boring. That you cannot easily understand the difference between being against abortion but being in favor of the war is not my fault, and not my responsibility. Most people here don't have that problem -- regardless of being on the right or left -- and I won't slow things do
          • by mfh ( 56 )
            > This isn't about left and right, or right and wrong.

            So you don't mind debating with lefties? Look I'm sorry if my prior comment offended you or bored you.

            > That you cannot easily understand the difference between being against abortion but being in favor of the war is not my fault

            I don't think I said this is your fault, but that it's hard for me to understand why a country would rally behind a party that would support vast destruction of foreign lands, men women and children, yet be opposed to
            • by pudge ( 3605 ) *
              So you don't mind debating with lefties?

              I do it often in here. I prefer talking to "lefties" than "righties," actually, as I seek intellectual stimulation, and there's precious little of that to be found when people agree with you.

              The thought of fetus growth for stem cell harvesting sickens me, but stem cell research can be moral if stem cells are collected from newborns and all other naturally occuring resources.

              I was talking specifically about the former, not the latter. Sorry for the confusion.
              • by mfh ( 56 )
                > I was talking specifically about the former, not the latter. Sorry for the confusion. I have no problem with the latter.

                Well to me, a strong minded Canadian leftist, I think that harvesting stem cells from any fetus using test tubes, or immoral practices can only be described as disgusting and should be stopped.

                I am, also, adopted, yet I believe in freedom of choice. My reason for this is that, I think a woman should decide if she is ready to have a baby, and accidents happen that harm a child. If a
                • by pudge ( 3605 ) *
                  Point being that, if a woman is legally allowed to abort a fetus, then the science should be allowed to legally use whatever they can for research, so that it's not a complete waste.

                  But it's not that simple. The most obvious problem is that I, and many others, view abortion as murder, and using their bodies for medical research is utterly distasteful. I know the law doesn't agree, but that's really beside the point. When I oppose using aborted fetuses for stem cell research, I am under no obligation to
                  • by mfh ( 56 )
                    > The most obvious problem is that I, and many others, view abortion as murder, and using their bodies for medical research is utterly distasteful.

                    If so, then you must push for laws against abortion. To fight legal use of stem cells is out of sync with the laws currently in effect. I'm only interested in the law, and therefore while there are abortions going on, legally, destroying stem cells for any reason is simply wasteful.

                    I'm not about to try and tell you that abortion is not murder, because I am
                    • by pudge ( 3605 ) *
                      To fight legal use of stem cells is out of sync with the laws currently in effect. I'm only interested in the law, and therefore while there are abortions going on, legally, destroying stem cells for any reason is simply wasteful.

                      I already addressed this: I have no obligation to push for laws that are consistent with other laws.

                      If you are against abortion, because it's murder, are you against masturbation or menstruation?

                      You're once again bringing the level of discussion down by bringing up silly/irre
                    • I'm not about to try and tell you that abortion is not murder, because I am not sure if that is true or false. If you are against abortion, because it's murder, are you against masturbation or menstruation? When a woman menstruates, she secretes an unfertilized egg; when a man masturbates, he secretes sperm. Are these activities also murderous? What specifically about conception brings about life? Sperm is alive, or appears to be alive under a microscope. Eggs are alive until they die off. Should we gather

                • Well to me, a strong minded Canadian leftist, I think that harvesting stem cells from any fetus using test tubes, or immoral practices can only be described as disgusting and should be stopped.

                  You are an admirable exception, then. I salute you.

                  May I submit for your consideration Left Out [liberals.com], the leftist pro-life group? You might be interested in seeing their arguments.

                  I guess what I'm saying is that abortion and stem cell research are separate issues, and that they can only be handled one at a time,

            • The thought of fetus growth for stem cell harvesting sickens me, but stem cell research can be moral if stem cells are collected from newborns and all other naturally occuring resources.

              Let me clarify something, then. You may already know this, but it is a common misunderstanding, so please bear with me if I'm telling you something you already know. Maybe someone else can benefit.

              The policy mandated by George Bush in 2001 does not prohibit research on stem cells. What it prohibits is federal fundin

        • by Jhon ( 241832 )
          ...but I think you have proven my point.
          You think wrong.

          You attempted to use some warped version of the reductio ad absurdum argument. You misused the technique. You attempted to show a contradiction, yet the only way you could do so was to mis-state and amplify pudge's position. Can you say "straw-man"?

          While his criticism was pointed, it was hardly off mark.
  • I know Orrin Hatch is now despised on Slashdot, but he does have an interesting view of stem cell research. As a religious Mormon, he studied the issue and decided that:

    "I came to the conclusion that, yes, the fertilized egg is a living human cell, but it has absolutely zero chance of becoming a living human being unless it is implanted in a womb," http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:q9wbFENtEDUJ : www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/religion/510650 9.htm&hl=en [216.239.41.104]

    That makes Orrin Hatch one of, if n
    • "I came to the conclusion that, yes, the fertilized egg is a living human cell, but it has absolutely zero chance of becoming a living human being unless it is implanted in a womb" ...

      That makes Orrin Hatch one of, if not the only, US Senator who is is pro-life and pro-stem cell research.


      There are varying degrees of both of these things, so I don't think it is all that odd. I've heard him say it before, and the only way for Hatch to believe this as literally stated is for him to believe that the organis
      • and the only way for Hatch to believe this as literally stated is for him to believe that the organism *is not yet* a human life, and therefore has no rights.

        Yep, that would fit with what started his thoughts, he wondered from a theology perspective where life began. And in his belief, stem cells in the laboratory are not yet life.

        The only other way for him to believe it, slightly modifying the apparent meaning of his words, is to say that it has no chance of becoming a born human being: this is tru
        • I'm assuming this was Hatch's point (although I can't read his mind), is that a stem cell that is not planned to be incubated cannot form into life, and so it has no rights.

          But this argument only holds if the organism right now has no rights -- which you imply by saying it cannot form into life, and therefore currently is not life -- in which case the point about viability is irrelevant. If it is not life, it has no rights. End of story.

          What about someone at the end of his life? If he requires aid to
    • I'm not sure where my dad stands on stem-cell research; I would presume against. We had a discussion awhile back, though, that was interesting. Most people don't know it, but the birth control pill has an abortive effect. In addition to making fertilization less likely, the birth control pill ALSO affects the womb in such a way that on the off chance fertilization DOES occur, implantation is less likely. The zygote is then discharged. To those who define a fertilized egg as a human being, this is an ab

  • I'm frustrated that this issue is so polarizing. You can't argue for abortion without appearing "anti-life" to those opposed to it. Nor can you argue against abortion without appearing "anti-choice" to those for it.

    Anyone in the middle gets blasted by both extremes.

    Rather than trying to argue the WHOLE of the issue, I wish people would be more willing to digest it in parts -- starting with an issue on which many people can understand/agree. Perhaps late-term abortion? Or that case in (Illinois, was it
    • Not that I would be the best one to explain this, Jhon, as I am obviously on one side of the debate...

      But, the issue with abortion is life and death of a human. Either you acknowledge that the embryo is a human life and to stop it from developing and being birthed is murder or a human life, or you assert that the embryo is not a human life and that destroying it for any purpose is valid (that was about as untainted as I get).

      The reason prolifers find abortion so abhorrent is because we see it as murder.
      • But, the issue with abortion is life and death of a human.

        Believe me, I understand this. Further, I am against abortion (notice I didn't say "pro-life"?).

        As polarizing as this issue is, I feel a healthy dose of pragmatism is in order. Our entire country nearly never existed becasue of the issue of slavery. Our own constitution equates a slave to 3/5's of a regular person. As silly as that sounds today, it's that type of pragmatism that kept us together until the underlying ISSUES could be worked out

        • As silly as that sounds today, it's that type of pragmatism that kept us together until the underlying ISSUES could be worked out.

          And it's the same sort of compromises we *do* see today in the abortion debate: late-term abortion, federal funding, parental notification, and other smaller issues become things we sometimes can come together on.

          I just don't think there will ever be a 'switch' that can be flipped or a 'lever' that can be pulled which will instantly CHANGE how things are currently.

          Of course
          • And it's the same sort of compromises we *do* see today in the abortion debate: late-term abortion, federal funding, parental notification, and other smaller issues become things we sometimes can come together on.

            Unfortunately, I don't believe we are coming together on those issues. I see minor changes in law or policies which are then vigrously challenged in court by the ACLU, NOW, or what ever accronym is popular these days.

            Granted, thats how the process works today -- but it certainly isn't what I w

            • 'libertarian' side leans that way anyway...

              While normally I would agree with your libertarian side, murder is
              murder. We should not have two different definitions of murder.
              Otherwise you wind up with abortion clinics and fireworks stands a
              couple hundred feet from state borders. ;-)
              • Literially taking "murder", there already are some 50 different definitions of murder. Each state deals with it differently -- to some extent. And with no federal involvement.

                Why not allow the various states to do the same on the abortion issue? So 'stateline's have fireworks, abortion clinics AND lets not forget Lotto sales.
                • So what if a state wants to legalize the killing of your neighbor, without cause? The change would be challenged in federal court, and it would be found to be unconstitutional because the state would be violating its obligation to secure the rights of the people.
                  • The word was "murder". Each state has it's own criteria of what is "murder" and delinates it from, say, 'manslaughter' or "justifiable homicide".

                    The federal government HAS taken a role in homicide in the past. Usually using federal 'civil rights' laws.

                    Please note that I never said the states had total autonomy with regards "legalized killing", only that the states decide what defines 'murder' and what the penalties are -- and what exceptions there may be.
                    • I apparently misunderstood your intention; and now that you have clarified, I fail to see how it is relevant. We aren't talking here about the slight state differences in penalties and classifications, we're talking about whether if the act in general is legal. You don't see "homicide clinics" on statelines. I see no reasonable analogy here.
                    • Is it relevent? I think so. My point is that as a nation, this issue is terribly polarizing. Let the states define the legality of abortion -- when it's appropriate and when it's not.

                      It allows the citizins of the various states deside for themselves on this issue and removes a 'chain' holding back the operations of the federal government.

                      Perhaps I failed to be clear -- I've tried to point out that the "act in general", as you say, is so polarizing that I highly doubt any changes will last past an elect
                    • Is it relevent? I think so. My point is that as a nation, this issue is terribly polarizing. Let the states define the legality of abortion -- when it's appropriate and when it's not.

                      I meant your comparison to murder -- how each state has different laws for it -- was irrelevant. Perhaps you should compare it instead to the different laws we had for slavery in the early 19th century.

                      But realize that leaving it to the states did not help the problem of polarization, it only exacerbated it, and eventually
                    • But realize that leaving it to the states did not help the problem of polarization, it only exacerbated it, and eventually led to war. I think that might be a bad way to go. :-)

                      I'll avoid the 'events that led to the civil war' discussion and mearly suggest that freeing slaves was ancillary -- a symptom of a 'disease' rather than an the 'arrowhead in a wound'.

                      What I will suggest that during the period in time when the death penalty was halted (1972-1977?) it was a fairly polarizing issue. While it still

                    • A comparison to the death penalty is really a poor one. There, we all agree that -- for the most part -- we are ending the lives of a few bad people, instead of here, we are defining away the very humanity of many people. It won't relieve pressure in any lasting way, it will only delay the eventual confrontation, and make the consequences more severe.
                    • it will only delay the eventual confrontation, and make the consequences more severe.
                      There we disagree. I'm unconvinced this is the case. And because my ego is directly related to my needing to be right, I must now hate you. (heh).
                    • Then I shall ban you from my journal forthwith!
            • Granted, thats how the process works today -- but it certainly isn't what I would call a 'compromise'. And I believe it's further polarizing us as a nation.

              And how is that different from the slavery issue?

              Hell -- I'd be happy if they just took abortion off the "national" radar and left it up to the states to decide. Actually, my 'libertarian' side leans that way anyway...

              That is denying that the child has a right to life. If it does, then it must be the federal government's responsibility to secure t
              • And how is that different from the slavery issue?
                It was constitutionally sanctioned -- then was constitutionally abolished. Abortion, per se, doesn't appear at all in the constitution. It's dependant on vague rights which rely on court interpetation to help define.

                Perhaps on this issue, the people need to decide by having our representatives create/pass a constitutional amendment?
                • The point was that the compromises are few and far betwen, and the issue continues to polarize the nation. And in both cases, the rights are vague, although I'll grant they are slightly more vague here, because we don't know where the line should be drawn. But in the case of slavery, it was still whether or not rights applied to a class of people. The only difference here is defining at which point the class of people is a class of people. :-)
        • The thing is we could skirt the issue by being most pragmaticly by
          researching with the stem cells found from baby teeth or from amniotic
          fluid. I am sure with the scientists we have today, we might even find
          another source that is not morally ambiguous.
    • The issue is so dividing because we are dealing with the basic issues of life and death. When does a human life begin? What rights should be afforded to human beings at what stages? There are not questions that most people take lightly.

      When slavery was legal in this country, there existed a group of people who believed that the current thinking that blacks were either 1) Not as human as whites, or 2) Not deserving of the same rights as whites, was wrong. They believed and fought for the rights of bla

      • Funny how we both focused on the same 3/5's compromise. I used it to illustrate that we can, when necessary make pragmatic choices for the benefit of the union.

        The issue is hurting our ability to function as a nation. The time and resources taken by the senate to pass/notpass judicial nominations saddens me. With this issue being a keystone issue.

Biology grows on you.

Working...