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Comment Security teams usually stop caring when not paid (Score 1) 167

From: https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen%2Farticl...
        ""The billionaires understand that they're playing a dangerous game," Rushkoff said. "They are running out of room to externalize the damage of the way that their companies operate. Eventually, there's going to be the social unrest that leads to your undoing."
        Like the gated communities of the past, their biggest concern was to find ways to protect themselves from the "unruly masses," Rushkoff said. "The question we ended up spending the majority of time on was: 'How do I maintain control of my security force after my money is worthless?'"
        That is, if their money is no longer worth anything -- if money no longer means power--how and why would a Navy Seal agree to guard a bunker for them?
        "Once they start talking in those terms, it's really easy to start puncturing a hole in their plan," Rushkoff said. "The most powerful people in the world see themselves as utterly incapable of actually creating a future in which everything's gonna be OK."

Comment Beyond a Jobless Recovery & Externalities (Score 1) 167

What I put together circa 2010 is becoming more and more relevant: https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpdfernhout.net%2Fbeyond-... "This article explores the issue of a "Jobless Recovery" mainly from a heterodox economic perspective. It emphasizes the implications of ideas by Marshall Brain and others that improvements in robotics, automation, design, and voluntary social networks are fundamentally changing the structure of the economic landscape. It outlines towards the end four major alternatives to mainstream economic practice (a basic income, a gift economy, stronger local subsistence economies, and resource-based planning). These alternatives could be used in combination to address what, even as far back as 1964, has been described as a breaking "income-through-jobs link". This link between jobs and income is breaking because of the declining value of most paid human labor relative to capital investments in automation and better design. Or, as is now the case, the value of paid human labor like at some newspapers or universities is also declining relative to the output of voluntary social networks such as for digital content production (like represented by this document). It is suggested that we will need to fundamentally reevaluate our economic theories and practices to adjust to these new realities emerging from exponential trends in technology and society."

Tangentially, since you mentioned coal, coal plants are discussed there as an example of the complex dynamics of technological and social change both creating and destroying jobs given externalities -- including from the laissez-faire capitalist economic imperative to privatize gains while socializing risks and costs :
      "Also, many current industries that employ large numbers of people (ranging from the health insurance industry, the compulsory schooling industry, the defense industry, the fossil fuel industry, conventional agriculture industry, the software industry, the newspaper and media industries, and some consumer products industries) are coming under pressure from various movements from both the left and the right of the political spectrum in ways that might reduce the need for much paid work in various ways. Such changes might either directly eliminate jobs or, by increasing jobs temporarily eliminate subsequent problems in other areas and the jobs that go with them (as reflected in projections of overall cost savings by such transitions); for example building new wind farms instead of new coal plants might reduce medical expenses from asthma or from mercury poisoning. A single-payer health care movement, a homeschooling and alternative education movement, a global peace movement, a renewable energy movement, an organic agriculture movement, a free software movement, a peer-to-peer movement, a small government movement, an environmental movement, and a voluntary simplicity movement, taken together as a global mindshift of the collective imagination, have the potential to eliminate the need for many millions of paid jobs in the USA while providing enormous direct and indirect cost savings. This would make the unemployment situation much worse than it currently is, while paradoxically possibly improving our society and lowering taxes. Many of the current justifications for continuing social policies that may have problematical effects on the health of society, pose global security risks, or may waste prosperity in various ways is that they create vast numbers of paid jobs as a form of make-work. ...
        Increasing mental health issues like depression and autism, and increasing physical health issues like obesity and diabetes and cancer, all possibly linked to poor nutrition, stress, lack of exercise, lack of sunlight and other factors in an industrialized USA (including industrial pollution), have meant many new jobs have been created in the health care field. So, for example, coal plants don't just create jobs for coal miners, construction workers, and plant operators, they also create jobs for doctors treating the results of low-level mercury pollution poisoning people and from smog cutting down sunlight. Television not only creates jobs for media producers, but also for health care workers to treat obesity resulting from sedentary watching behavior (including not enough sunlight and vitamin D) or purchasing unhealthy products that are advertised. ...
      Macroeconomics as a mathematical discipline generally ignores the issue of precisely how physical resources are interchangeable. Before this shift in economic thinking to a more resource-based view, that question of "how" things are transformed had generally been left to other disciplines like engineering or industrial chemistry (the actual physical alchemists of our age). For one thinking in terms of resources and ecology, the question of how nutrients cycle from farm to human to sewage and then back to farm as fertilizer might be as relevant as discussing the pricing of each of those items, like biologist John Todd explores as a form of ecological economics as it relates to mainstream business opportunities. People like Paul Hawken, Amory Lovins, and Hunter Lovins have written related books on the idea of natural capital. For another example, the question of exactly how coal-fired power plants might connect to human health and other natural capital was previously left to the health profession or the engineering profession before this transdisciplinary shift where economists, engineers, ecologists, health professionals, and people with other interests might all work together to understand the interactions. In the process of thinking through the interactions, considerations about creating healthy and enjoyable jobs can be included in the analysis of costs and benefits to various parties including various things that are often ignored as externalities. So, a simple analysis [in the past] might indicate coal was cheaper than solar power, but a more complete analysis, like attempted in the book Brittle Power might indicate the value in shifting economic resources to the green energy sector as ultimately cheaper when all resource costs, human costs, and other opportunities are considered. These sorts of analyses have long happened informally through the political process such as with recent US political decisions moving towards a ban of new coal-fired power plants. Jane Jacobs, in her writings on the economies of cities, is one example of trying to think through the details of how specific ventures in a city affects the overall structure of that city's economy, including the creation of desirable local jobs through import replacement. A big issue of resource-based economics is to formalize this decision making process somehow, where the issue of creating good jobs locally would be weighed as one factor among many. ..."

Comment Re:Here are some whingers on being replaced by AI (Score 1) 44

Informative story. Mod parent up.

I just submitted your link as a Slashdot story: https://f6ffb3fa-34ce-43c1-939d-77e64deb3c0c.atarimworker.io/firehose....

What I put together circa 2010 is becoming more and more relevant:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpdfernhout.net%2Fbeyond-...
"This article explores the issue of a "Jobless Recovery" mainly from a heterodox economic perspective. It emphasizes the implications of ideas by Marshall Brain and others that improvements in robotics, automation, design, and voluntary social networks are fundamentally changing the structure of the economic landscape. It outlines towards the end four major alternatives to mainstream economic practice (a basic income, a gift economy, stronger local subsistence economies, and resource-based planning). These alternatives could be used in combination to address what, even as far back as 1964, has been described as a breaking "income-through-jobs link". This link between jobs and income is breaking because of the declining value of most paid human labor relative to capital investments in automation and better design. Or, as is now the case, the value of paid human labor like at some newspapers or universities is also declining relative to the output of voluntary social networks such as for digital content production (like represented by this document). It is suggested that we will need to fundamentally reevaluate our economic theories and practices to adjust to these new realities emerging from exponential trends in technology and society."

Submission + - The workers who lost their jobs to AI (theguardian.com) 1

Paul Fernhout writes: "From a radio host replaced by avatars to a comic artist whose drawings have been copied by Midjourney, how does it feel to be replaced by a bot?" by Charis McGowan in the Guardian.

Comment Re:Deeper issue that "grading" etc is harmful (Score 1) 337

Thanks for the kind words about the back and forth with the by Ol Olsoc. I saw a suggestion once years ago that ideally mod points on sites like Slashdot or similar should be used to mod positive interactions between people instead of for specific comments. So I'll take that as a "+1" for our interaction. :-) I sometimes use mod points that way even if means modding up many comments in an interaction. And it is true, as I think about it, that mod points are a sort of numerical "grading" I guess -- but I can wonder why they don't quite feel the same? Maybe because they are more clearly about a specific narrow effort (one post, or one interaction) and not about a person in general? Slashdot does not give people an overall visible "grade" related to mod points received or dispensed and such, although there is a vague karma indicator.

You both may find this book of interest because you both talk about motivation whether in relation to competition or other things:
"Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us" by Daniel H. Pink"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.danpink.com%2Fbooks%2F...

A related amusing video:
"RSA ANIMATE: Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3F...

While no doubt there is more nuance to motivation, in short, Dan Pink explains that Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose (I would lump Purpose in with Community) are major humans motivators. While extrinsic motivation like being paid-per-brick-you-place can get people to do physical jobs efficiently, intellectual jobs requiring creativity tend to be diminished by pay-per-idea rewards. Such rewards are different though from a boarder recognition of contributing (which is generally well-received and motivating).

Alfie Kohn makes a related point here on how rewards can diminish intrinsic motivation:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F...

Growth Mindset is tangentially related:
"What Having a "Growth Mindset" Actually Means"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhbr.org%2F2016%2F01%2Fwhat-h...

Not everyone agrees with all of this, of course, and there are various theories on all this:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F...

Again, to address a previous point by by Ol Olsoc and others, concerns about "grading" as done in conventional schools is not the same as not providing "feedback". The issue is what kind of feedback with what timing is useful to the person and the community.

Related on feedback from Rands in Repose:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Frandsinrepose.com%2Farch...
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Frandsinrepose.com%2Farch...
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Frandsinrepose.com%2Fsear...

And, as a key point, frequent feedback should go both ways:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Frandsinrepose.com%2Farch...

In general: "How Effective Feedback Fuels Performance"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gallup.com%2Fworkpla...
"Meaningful feedback is frequent.
Effective feedback has an expiration date. Feedback should be a common occurrence -- for most jobs, a few times per week. People remember their most recent experiences best, so feedback is most valuable when it occurs immediately after an action. Managers should maintain an ongoing dialogue with employees -- using conversations that offer timely, in-the-moment feedback that's inspiring, instructive and actionable."

Maybe both of you just have never had great managers? They sure seem rare...
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gallup.com%2Fworkpla...
"Gallup has found that one of the most important decisions companies make is simply whom they name manager. Yet our analytics suggest they usually get it wrong. In fact, Gallup finds that companies fail to choose the candidate with the right talent for the job 82% of the time."

And an example of how assigning numbers to employees can go really wrong sometimes:
"How stack ranking corrupts culture, at Uber and Beyond"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.perdoo.com%2Fresourc...
"Creating a cutthroat culture inside your company may seem productive at first, but sooner or later it's bound to catch up -- as Uber is learning."

And:
"Stacked Ranking - A Great Way to Kill Collaboration on Agile Teams"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Finnolution.com%2Fblog%2Fst...

I've collected some stuff on being a better manager here (in part from my own frustrations over the years):
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fpdfernhout%2F...

All the best in finding approaches that work for you both to stay motivated in whatever social environments you find yourselves.

And to circle back to my original point, given all the above, what should "educational" social environments look like to keep people of any age motivated? And does that really differ from what is needed in "work" environments? Tangential, but relates to that point:
"The Three Boxes of Life [School, Work, Retirement/Leisure] and How to Get Out of Them: An Introduction to Life/Work Planning" by Nelson Bolles
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FThree-B...
A comment from there by hskydg80 from March 11, 2011: "Great concepts, just 30 years old, as are the sources pointed to in the book for more information. Concept of balancing education, work and leisure throughout life rather than overloading in each time periods is major point of book. Could see an update from interested writer to apply timeless principals to today's technology."

Comment Re:Deeper issue that "grading" etc is harmful (Score 2) 337

Thanks for the reply. The value of a grade on the context, which can be complex. Example: "William Lowell Putnam Undergraduate Mathematics Competition 2016 at Rutgers"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.math.rutgers.edu...
"The exam consists of two parts (morning and afternoon) with 6 problems in each part. Each problem is worth 10 points for a total of 120 points. The exam is very difficult; typically a score of 20 points (2 problems fully correct) is already good enough to be in the top 20% of exam takers. A score of 40 points will probably put you in the top 5%. Grading is very strict. There is very little partial credit given. If your solution is not well written you may earn only 1 or 2 points."

I forget exactly what score I got on the William Lowell Putnam when I took it at sixteen years old. Maybe around 20 or a little less? The university math professors still seemed impressed.

Nobody is saying don't provide timely and useful feedback or even don't keep track of progress. The issue is substituting that for typical numerical grading assigned in a typical class and all the baggage that comes with it.

Related:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.teachthought.com%2Fp...
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fteaching.berkeley.edu%2F...
"Why do we grade and what are grades for? Although grading is ubiquitous in higher education, both long-standing evidence and continued investigations have revealed that the answer to these questions can be very different across courses and contexts. In recent years, multiple different grading frameworks have emerged with the goal of explicitly designing practices that reflect student learning. In particular, these approaches provide opportunities to give more constructive feedback to students, give the instructor and students reliable information about their learning, and focus on promoting students' intrinsic motivation."

Likewise, nobody is saying don't establish minimum standards for credentialing professionals. The issue is how you go about that.

See for example: https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.facmedicine.com%2F...
"Medical school grades are almost universally given in one of three ways. (It's actually more like two different ways, but I'll get into that later.) The more traditional programs stick to the 4.0, A-F grading scale that you're the most familiar with. That's right, your GPA nightmares will continue to haunt you every time you receive your end of semester grades in medical school. Alternatively, other schools use a binary Passor Fail scale to indicate whether or not you have acquired the minimum knowledge base to... well... err... pass. Pass/Fail medical schools have become increasingly common, but we'll discuss below why this can very misleading. ...
        I found it surprising that more than half of programs in the U.S. claim to be Pass/Fail medical schools, while only less than 20% use the A-F scale. The binary grading system has seemed to take over medical education, as other systems are being phased out. There has to be some benefit, right? ...
      The main advantage to a true Pass/Fail medical school is the perceived lower level of competition between students. Supposedly, if you are not being ranked directly against your peers, and are instead only motivated to properly learn the material, you are more likely to work cooperatively with your fellow students. More importantly, you are theoretically LESS likely to sabotage or otherwise hinder the others in your class if you are not actively competing with them for a higher grade.
        More elite medical schools (UCSF, Harvard, Mayo etc.) attract some of the most intelligent and capable students in the world. Ranking their students against one another is counter-productive. We already know that these individuals are the best of the best, and an average student at UCSF is likely a stronger candidate than one of the top students at many other schools (at least that is the idea). In these situations Pass/Fail medical school grading systems make the most sense. However, for students who go to less prestigious schools, class rankings (although stressful) can allow you to stand out.
        Additionally, competition is a major stressor on both medical students and residents alike. Residencies in certain specialties are notoriously difficult to obtain, making every exam feel like a potential career ender. Resident performance can also doom your fellowship chances. Every year students and residents are overwhelmed by the pressure put on them to succeed, and every year students drop out or (worse) even commit suicide.
        As a student who went to a straight A-F grading medical school, I will give some support to the less competition is better argument. Only a small percentage of students at my program were able to achieve the highest evaluation in each class. Predictably, there was a lot of note hoarding, elite study groups that rejected weaker students, and even (a very small amount) cheating. I had friends who were on the edge of breakdowns due to the performance stress, and Although I do not have first hand experience, I can imaging that a school with no internal ranking system would be more cooperative and congenial. Obviously, there will always be stress and competition (this is medical school after all). However, taking grades out of the picture is probably one of the most effective solutions to combat the competitive atmosphere. ..."

So, given all that, yes, surgeons who graduated from a medical school without A-F grades but instead pass/fail competency tests are probably a good choice. :-) And I'd suggest such a surgeon is likely to be more cooperative and more compassionate than a surgeon who went to a school where they were graded. Still, that is gaming your question in the sense that such elite schools as above may use previous grades in their admission policies.

To see one other flaw in grading, contrast grading and moving on with, say, a "90%" grade with "mastery learning" like Khan Academy encourages:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdistricts.khanacademy....
"Khan Academy's mastery learning system builds students understanding over time, allowing them to slow down and dig into skills where they need support or skip ahead when they show proficiency. ... Course mastery goals allow students to set their own learning goals, understand their areas of strength and areas of need, and make choices about what to focus on in order to get where they want to go."

So, ideally, I want a surgeon who has mastered every needed skill to 100% at some point during their education. Again, in such a situation, what does a "grade" assigned at the end of a course of study mean? If any student does not get 100% eventually on important skills, shouldn't that be a "fail" for the course when you think about it?

Do people need to be given grades when they read books in the library? Do people need to be given grades when they have a hobby? Do people need grades when they do home repairs on their own home? Sure, these are all situations where feedback of some sort form someone else might sometimes be useful. But what would be the value of essentially arbitrary "grades"?

Anyway, a complex nuanced topic. As I see it (informed by John Taylor Gatto, Alfie Kohn, John Holt, Pat Ferenga, Grace Llewelyn and many others), the whole schooling system is broken and has been for a long time -- and it is only getting more broken with advancing technology. I wrote about that in 2007:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpatapata.sourceforge.n...

Comment Deeper issue that "grading" etc is harmful (Score 3, Insightful) 337

See Alfie Kohn: https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alfiekohn.org%2Farti...
====
You can tell a lot about a teacher's values and personality just by asking how he or she feels about giving grades. Some defend the practice, claiming that grades are necessary to "motivate" students. Many of these teachers actually seem to enjoy keeping intricate records of students' marks. Such teachers periodically warn students that they're "going to have to know this for the test" as a way of compelling them to pay attention or do the assigned readings - and they may even use surprise quizzes for that purpose, keeping their grade books at the ready. Frankly, we ought to be worried for these teachers' students. In my experience, the most impressive teachers are those who despise the whole process of giving grades. Their aversion, as it turns out, is supported by solid evidence that raises questions about the very idea of traditional grading.

Three Main Effects of Grading

Researchers have found three consistent effects of using - and especially, emphasizing the importance of - letter or number grades:

1. Grades tend to reduce students' interest in the learning itself. ...

2. Grades tend to reduce students' preference for challenging tasks. ...

3. Grades tend to reduce the quality of students' thinking. ...

More Reasons to Just Say No to Grades

The preceding three results should be enough to cause any conscientious educator to rethink the practice of giving students grades. But as they say on late-night TV commercials, Wait - there's more.

4. Grades aren't valid, reliable, or objective. ...

5. Grades distort the curriculum. ...

6. Grades waste a lot of time that could be spent on learning. ...

7. Grades encourage cheating. ...

8. Grades spoil teachers' relationships with students. ...

9. Grades spoil students' relationships with each other. ...
====

Homework is generally harmful too: https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alfiekohn.org%2Farti...

And so is "competition": https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alfiekohn.org%2Farti...

Essentially, just about everything in modern schooling was *intentionally* designed to dumb down kids and make them more compliant, as John Taylor Gatto, a New York Teacher of the Year, explains:
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lewrockwell.com%2F20...
"I'll bring this down to earth. Try to see that an intricately subordinated industrial/commercial system has only limited use for hundreds of millions of self-reliant, resourceful readers and critical thinkers. In an egalitarian, entrepreneurially based economy of confederated families like the one the Amish have or the Mondragon folk in the Basque region of Spain, any number of self-reliant people can be accommodated usefully, but not in a concentrated command-type economy like our own. Where on earth would they fit?"

Se also by Gatto: "The Seven Lesson Schoolteacher"
https://ancillary-proxy.atarimworker.io?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationliberat...
"Look again at the seven lessons of schoolteaching: confusion, class position, indifference, emotional and intellectual dependency, conditional self-esteem, surveillance -- all of these things are prime training for permanent underclasses, people deprived forever of finding the center of their own special genius. And over time this training has shaken loose from its own original logic: to regulate the poor. For since the 1920s the growth of the school bureaucracy, and the less visible growth of a horde of industries that profit from schooling exactly as it is, has enlarged this institution's original grasp to the point that it now seizes the sons and daughters of the middle classes as well."

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