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Journal Marxist Hacker 42's Journal: Baptists and anabaptists 19

In my discussion with Smitty-one-each, I came across the, curious to me, claim that the Baptists, Amish, German Apostolic Christians, and Mennonites were all descended from the anabaptists. I found this weird, because in my reading of Church history, the Anabaptists were a French Gnostic cult from the 13th century.

Turns out I had the wrong anabaptists, and I spent a lot of time researching the wrong sect. Many heresies previous to the 16th century took the name Anabaptists, which merely meant a belief in only adult and not infant baptism, combined with a belief in rebaptism (the orthodox version says once is enough for the sacrament of baptism, where the Anabaptists would rebaptize people who had been baptized as infants, in keeping with their belief that only an adult can make that choice).

But in the 16th century, a group of Radical Reformationists took on the name, and took the belief to a new level. In particular, they kept 5 points from the Gnostic sects that came before them:

1. Some followed Menno Simons in teaching that Jesus did not take the flesh from his mother, but either brought his body from heaven or had one made for him by the Word. Some even said that he passed through his mother, as water through a pipe, into the world. In pictures and sculptures of the 15th century and earlier, we often find represented this idea, originated by Marcion in the 2nd century. Marcion, of course, was the creator of the Gnostic Marcionites, the same sect of Gnostics that St. Augustine passed through on his way to becoming Catholic. In keeping with this they deny transubstantiation- the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, for to them, Christ never had a "real human body" to begin with.
2. They condemned oaths, and also the reference of disputes between believers to law-courts, much like the French 13th century anabaptists rejected the rule of the feudal nobility over the lives of the peasantry.
3. The believer must not bear arms or offer forcible resistance to wrongdoers, nor wield the sword. No Christian has the jus gladii. This is a belief that St. Augustine kept from the Marcionites, and defended in City of God against the challenge that this belief caused the fall of the Roman Empire. This isn't a strictly heretical idea- the orthodox Church took it up and developed it into what we now call today the Just War Theory.
4. Civil government (i.e. "Caesar") belongs to the world. The believer, who belongs to God's kingdom, must not fill any office, nor hold any rank under government, which is to be passively obeyed. Would that modern Baptists still believed this, I think non-Christians would have fewer problems with them! But this is a common ideal to all religions that gets abandoned within the first 4 centuries of the life cycle of religious sects. It's a stage all religious sects have to pass through, the gaining of sufficient numbers to influence governmental power. Eventually, it gets slowly abandoned again, after experiencing the same mistakes all religious sects go through with respect to governmental power.
5. Sinners or unfaithful ones are to be excommunicated, and excluded from the sacraments and from intercourse with believers unless they repent, according to 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 and Matt.18:15 seq. But no force is to be used towards them. Is there any human religious sect that doesn't understand this?

To this they added the Didache- an ancient text from the Early Church Fathers, often called by the Roman Catholic Church the first Missal, for it describes a primitive version of the Catholic Mass, the early separation of preachers into a two-tier hierarchy (some say a three tier, as it fails to mention itinerant preachers), and a cycle of prayers for daily life (an early version of the Liturgy of the Hours, but using the Lord's Prayer instead of the Psalter). In some ways, they were winding liturgy back 1500 years to the very earliest form of worship. Early 16th century Anabaptists were also Apostolic Communists- many of the communities they build held all property in common, for the good of the community, with individuals owning nothing, only being stewards of possessions.

I have to wonder how modern baptist beliefs match up to this radical heritage. Especially American Baptists, in the post 1990 Republican takeover of the Moral Majority. Many Republican beliefs- private property, pre-emptive war, trickle-down economics, tax cuts for the rich, etc.- do not seem to fit into classic Anabaptist beliefs, and in fact seem to be directly opposed to many of them.

On the other hand, many Anabaptist beliefs seem to mirror Augustinian Order Roman Catholicism, including how it has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries in South America, with the advent of Liberation Theology, Social Justice, and Nativist Wealth Redistribution such has been seen in Venezuela and Bolivia.

Another interesting link to Catholicism is the Christian Anarchy movement, particularly the Catholic Workers movement, who claim that small communities and local government and local economies are all that is needed. Such groups reject both nationalism and internationalism in favor of relatively small communities with no hierarchy; though the Catholic Worker's movement as a part of the Claretian Order (also known as The Missionary Sons of the Immaculate Heart of Mary), do take vows of obedience and service. Curious that the closest Catholic order to Anabaptism today is a Marianist order, with extra devotion to the Blessed Virgin.
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Baptists and anabaptists

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  • ...and I'll have to do some more research in my endless spare time. ;)
    Part of the problem with (let me throw out a term) "fringe" Christianity in Europe between Augustine and Spurgeon is that the fringe people flew below the historical radar.
    Certainly, there were many heresies recycled which had already been squashed in the early centuries after Christ.
    The important feature, though, is that a remnant eschewed the...views...of Rome. Consider Matthew11, where Jesus contrasts His ministry with that of John
    • Part of the problem with (let me throw out a term) "fringe" Christianity in Europe between Augustine and Spurgeon is that the fringe people flew below the historical radar.

      There's a good reason for that. In a society where religion, government, survival, and the hierarchy are closely tied, heretics actively threaten the survival of the community. A good religious revival can increase productivity (by encouraging people to work for the greater good) or it can decrease productivity (by causing rebellion a
      • The more I look at Acts 16:33, the less impressive I find it as a case for infant baptism.
        "with all his family"
        • Were they merely present at the baptism of the jailer?
        • Were there any children smaller than those capable of confessing their sin verbally and understanding what the sacrement meant? (I was about to launch into an aside about baptizing pets, but don't want to appear sarcastic)
        • Was there an infinite loop, as "all his family" grew to take on the whole nation?

        People being baptized are bapitezed

        • Were there any children smaller than those capable of confessing their sin verbally and understanding what the sacrement meant? (I was about to launch into an aside about baptizing pets, but don't want to appear sarcastic)

          Baptism didn't necessarily include confession back then. The attitude was, Christ is returning tomorrow- anybody unbaptized is going to hell. Would you leave behind an infant unbaptized merely for not yet understanding what sin is?

          Roman Catholic theological theory no longer includes l
          • The attitude was, Christ is returning tomorrow

            Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

            There is a fine line between being a good steward, and seeking to double the talents we've been given (Matthew 25), and becoming worldly, and neglecting to live as if the return of Christ were not imminent. If we were to punt on this hope, we

            • There is a fine line between being a good steward, and seeking to double the talents we've been given (Matthew 25), and becoming worldly, and neglecting to live as if the return of Christ were not imminent. If we were to punt on this hope, we could start tweaking the dogma in all manner of "interesting" ways.

              True enough. Though I'd point out that the Roman Catholic separation of what you call Baptism into the sacraments of initiation actually *predates* the incarnation of Christ.

              Jesus was a Jew. It wou
              • What John added was the Sacrament of Reconciliation, tying Baptism to a confession of sin. And what Christ added was the Eucharist- the sacrifice for the forgiveness of those sins. Baptism and Confirmation are very ancient in comparison, but Reconciliation and the Eucharist gave them new meaning.

                What John and Jesus did was _define_ the concept of Baptism for the Church. The historical fact that mikvahs and bar mitzvahs were not new to the Jews is rather beside the point.
                Show me where John used the words

                • What John and Jesus did was _define_ the concept of Baptism for the Church. The historical fact that mikvahs and bar mitzvahs were not new to the Jews is rather beside the point.

                  Ah, but as you pointed out, John and Jesus were Jews- and in fact, so was their immediate audience, the Church didn't really begin to split off until LONG after Christ's death- with Paul and Barnabas having the novel idea of preaching to gentiles. Without that, Christianity is just another Jewish sect. A very successful Jewish s
                  • In many ways, the Baptist form of this (new churches separated geographically that are autonomous in their local faith) is indeed faster, more liberal, more responsive. But I'd say that faster and more responsive can rush headlong into heresy. And also there's no feedback method to go back to the parent church, where the Catholic Conciliar method brings back novel ideas for debate at a worldwide level at least once a century (doesn't mean any change will come from that debate, however).

                    The Baptists feel th

                    • The Baptists feel that their churches actually model the Church as commisioned by the Christ and seen in the New Testament.

                      As does every other Christian sect out there- there isn't a single sect that doesn't think this, even when it's obvious that their origins can only be traced back to the 1500s. When you think about it, even the modern version of Roman Catholicism is a product of the counter-reformation, The Council of Trent [wikipedia.org] in 1545. Besides that, there's a history behind Christ as the Messiah, Chris
                    • My answer to it is this- human beings are imperfect, and *any* means of getting the central message across is useful and good. Thus I see such things as Mass in the vernacular, or the Christianization of pagan holidays, as a good thing- for the sake of evangelization.

                      I will now speak out both sides of my mouth, with great dexterity.
                      On an individual basis, like me to you, or in an unofficial setting, taking a liberal view as you seem to here is indeed a good thing. Let's get together with Muslims, Hindus

                    • Ok, this is one I'm going to respond to backwards....if you don't mind:

                      [1]And I never use this to mean other than the independent, local churchThis, to me, is a barrier to ecumenicism. In and of itself, it's a barrier to the healing of the schisms, because it has a tendency to *create new schisms*. Individualism is fine as far as it goes- one should take NOTHING on faith value alone, one should study to understand and accept whatever level of Christian truth one can. But I see this as the primary prob
                    • And I never use this to mean other than the independent, local church
                      And the lesson of Amish Grace: For if we cannot forgive the past, how can we ever heal the schisms? If we cannot forgive those who trespass against us, in what way do we deserve forgiveness for our own trespass?

                      Is a difference of opinion a sin? I think I understand how Matt16 is accepted to anoint Peter as the first pope and set up apostolic succession.
                      While forgiveness, for one who understands what's been forgiven us all through th

                    • Is a difference of opinion a sin?

                      Alone, no...but then again, after something has been debated for centuries and decided, one would have the burden of informing one's conscience before making up one's mind; that is, examining the debate for oneself. And after that, well, as I said above- if our loyalty isn't to our own reason first, then we can't claim to be a rational religion.

                      I think I understand how Matt16 is accepted to anoint Peter as the first pope and set up apostolic succession.

                      I think you're
                    • To me, the only sins are ceasing to grow in the Holy Spirit or worse yet, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

                      I should expand upon that. ALL other sins, even the mortal ones, are an extension of these two. Luxuria (extravagance, later lust), Gula (gluttony), Avaritia (greed), Acedia (sloth), Ira (wrath, more commonly known as anger), Invidia (envy), and Superbia (pride). All of these are just giving in to our human nature; saying "I don't want to do it God's way, I want to do it MY way", when we know d
  • You might be interested in David Lipscomb's Civil Government [www.mun.ca]. It's not Baptist or anabaptist, but from American Churches of Christ. (Churches of Christ are very similar in some ways to Independent Baptists, but with a few departures where we are more similar to Catholics.) Post-world wars, though, Lipscomb's views have no longer been even close to a majority in Churches of Christ.

    • I'll have to look at that on the weekend. Amazing the censorship here at work, there are things that Oregon just doesn't think it's fit for a mid-level government employee to know.
  • this is a basic claim of landmarkism, which is a mostly rejected view that baptists are the only true church, and they can be traced back to the apostles.
    • this is a basic claim of landmarkism, which is a mostly rejected view that baptists are the only true church, and they can be traced back to the apostles.

      Yes, that was the claim I was investigating. The curious thing that needs explaining is the extreme differences in beliefs between 16th century and 13th century anabaptists- Few in the Sweedish Reformation would agree with the 13th Century French Gnostics that our physical human bodies are so vile that to repent of the sin we need to starve ourselves to

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